Transcript

Gaelynn Lea:

In 2024, any place that isn't being inclusive or accessible, I think we need to start using the word discrimination. Like, it might be discrimination of omission, but a lot of times, it's it's more than that. You know? Like like, they know that they're inaccessible. I've talked them about it. They're just not doing anything about it. So they're not the victims at this point of, oh, it's expensive. Because 34 years in, you can creatively fundraise. You can save your tips.

Gaelynn Lea:

Like, say not your tips, but, like, you know, you can have people say, do you wanna donate a dollar to the Access Fund? There's, like, lots of of creative ways in 34 years that you can be making yourself more accessible.

Jennifer (Music):

Oh my goodness, you are such an inspiration.

Jennifer (Music):

Wow, you really are.

Jennifer (Music):

You're so strong. Can I pet your service dog? Ugh!

Jennifer (Music):

1, 2, 3, let's go. We're artists, parents, teachers, good guys, bad guys, students, leaders. I'm not your inspiration. No, I believe who I am. Got my own expectations that don't fit into your plans. I'm not your sad story, so I wrote it in this song. Everything you know about disability is wrong! Everything you know, yeah, everything you know about disability is wrong!

Lily Newton:

We're back with another season of Everything You Know About Disability is Wrong, and we are so excited for another season full of authentic conversations from within the disability community.

Erin Hawley:

We have some incredible guests lined up for the season, including today. So without further ado, let's get started.

Lily Newton:

In 2016, you won NPR's Tiny Desk Concert and captivated audiences around the world with your haunting original songs and traditional fiddle tunes. You've opened for bands such as Wilco, the Decemberists, Low, and the industrial rock supergroup, Pigface. You composed music for Macbeth on Broadway. I'm a theater kid, so I'm gonna knock on some wood after saying that. And, and that was directed by Sam Gold and starred Daniel Craig and Ruth Negga.

Erin Hawley:

And outside of playing music and comparison, you're a disagree advocate and passionate about disability culture, and you also founded the Recording Artists and Music Professionals with Disabilities, also known as RAMPD, and with our former guest, Lachi, from last season.

Lily Newton:

Welcome to the show, Gaelynn Lea. We are so excited to have you.

Gaelynn Lea:

Thanks so much for having me. I'm Gaelynn Lea. I have a short white woman in an electric wheelchair with, shorter limbs. I'm wearing up a multicolored gold dress and some pearl well, fake fake pearl bracelets and, pink flower clip. And I got my dark hair down, and I'm sitting in my kitchen, and I'm very, very happy to be talking with you both today.

Lily Newton:

Thanks for kicking off our audio descriptions. This is Lily speaking. I am a white presenting young woman with brown hair and green eyes, and I'm wearing my favorite shirt, which is a black button up with little barbed wire decal and white fringe. Got a little bit.

Gaelynn Lea:

Yeah.

Lily Newton:

Awesome. Energy going on today.

Erin Hawley:

And I'm Erin. I have, I'm white presenting. I have reddish hair, blue eyes, and I'm wearing a gray sweater. It's very, very comfortable.

Lily Newton:

Also on the screen, we have our podcast cover art, which is purple and yellow and says Everything You Know About Disability Is Wrong. Let's get into the questions.

Gaelynn Lea:

Yay.

Erin Hawley:

So we named this podcast Everything You Know About Disability Is Wrong, and we like to ask all our guests, what do people get wrong about you and your disability?

Gaelynn Lea:

Well, I I think the biggest thing there's a couple things, but the biggest thing I think is just that assuming that my childhood was really hard because of my disability. Ironically, I would say that more of the barriers that face disabled people didn't start impacting me until I was an adult and kinda got in the real world and realized there was, like, job discrimination and inaccessible environments and just, not a lot of support at college and all the things that ended up being kind of a a bigger deal. And so, I grew up the only disabled kid in my family. There's 4 siblings total, and my parents are just really awesome. And I I had a really, really supportive, community too. There is a occupational therapist who I told her I wanted to be a ballet dancer, and she just, like, started a ballet class for kids with disabilities. And this is in, like, the late eighties, so way before. I mean, it's not that uncommon now, but it was really uncommon at the time.

Gaelynn Lea:

And so I just had a really, good childhood. We were definitely lower income, and so it wasn't like a privileged childhood in that regard, but it was definitely a very nurturing one. So that's probably the first thing is, like, people wonder, you know, did you struggle a lot with disability growing up? And, obviously, you know, it it's something you think about. Like, oh, I wish I could walk. Sometimes it would come to mind, but the most part, like, the vast majority, I just had a really fun childhood and have a lot of positive memories. And then the other thing is just the idea that, you know, disability is inherently negative. I mean, I think that's sort of probably the whole point of this podcast is to kind of help people to think about disability as, like, a form of diversity that is the way that you exist in the world, and there's nothing inherently good or bad about the way that you're born. It's about how, you know, how society responds to you and then also what you do with the situation that you're in and and and that there's a lot of beautiful things that can be done in the life of a disabled person and that we enrich our society and inherently have worth and all these things that I think underneath the surface in our culture, we haven't quite gotten to that point where people think of disability as just a form of diversity rather than, something that's like a a big liability or something negative.

Gaelynn Lea:

So those are the 22 main things, I think. On the top of my head, I'm sure there's more.

Lily Newton:

Yes. Absolutely. And I think that, like, that first point is, like, the foundation of what makes the second point of the the assuming that we had terrible childhoods and that, you know, having a non apparent disability, it's like when I'll tell someone for the first time, you know, you get the the worst responses. They're like, oh, I'm sorry.

Erin Hawley:

And I'm like, well, I'm not.

Lily Newton:

Exactly. So but I think that, yeah, it does come from that, like, assuming a really negative childhood. I know, Erin, you've talked about this in past episodes.

Erin Hawley:

Yeah. Like, I you know, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna lie and say it was perfect. So I did go through, like, some bad shit with like mental health, especially. But, like, outside of that, my childhood was very, like, basic. I had friends. I went to school. I think a big thing was that I was mainstreamed throughout my schooling, and I was I was, like, one of the only visibly disabled people in high school, but I still have, like, tons of friends. I dated guys at 12 years old. You know? Woah. Yeah.

Erin Hawley:

Not really. It's like, it's not real.

Gaelynn Lea:

When you're 12.

Lily Newton:

So real when you're 12.

Erin Hawley:

It does. It really does. But, yes, I think, like, having disability mainstreamed, I think really impacts, you know, how we're viewed in society and especially have reviewed ourselves too.

Lily Newton:

Absolutely. And, you know, what, what you're saying about the assuming disability as a negative thing, I think that I saw something on Twitter the other day which was responding to the usual, like, super ableist thing where people are like, it's not a disability. It's special ability or extra ability or something, and it's like the the person who responded to it said, you know, disability is a net neutral term. Like, it's it's and I really I hadn't heard that phrasing of it before, and I really liked that because I've heard that in, like, the, fat liberation movement being used. So, like, fat is a net neutral term, and I really like that. Like, exactly what you said. It's just another form of diversity. So there's no need to be like, oh, you're not disabled. You're great. It's like, no. No.

Lily Newton:

I am and great.

Gaelynn Lea:

Yep. Yeah. Exactly. And, I mean, I think to your point, like, it's it's important to remember that not everyone with disabilities does have a great childhood. There's a lot of people I mean, I and like anyone, like any form of diversity, there's people who grew up in supportive homes, who have a wide network of community around them and friends and all this stuff, and then there's people that don't. And so, yeah, it is, like, actually, like, diversity in in the same way that some people's experience with disability is more negative. And I don't wanna negate, like, you know, there are parts of my disability story that are less pleasant, I would say, than others. Right? And so it's just like I mean, it's so just like any other form of diversity that I can't say it more times.

Gaelynn Lea:

Like, there are experiences that every cultural background, every, every minority in America have that are, like, both good and bad and parts of it that they really embrace and parts of it that were harder. And, like, it doesn't it's we're still equally valuable regardless of all of those things. And that's where I just really want people to, like, try to try to wrap their minds around this idea of diversity because diversity doesn't imply that, because of a certain background, everything was great or everything was terrible. It's just like you experienced life from this lens, and that's really what it means. You know?

Lily Newton:

Yeah. I think if we were to, you know, take our already very long podcast title and make it even more, like, on the spot, it would be that, like, everything you know about disability is assumptions, actually. Like, so much assumption and, like, that, you know, thinking that you understand this whole group because of a single experience that you happen to like, you know, you knew the 1 disabled kid in your class growing up, so you think you understand disability. And it's like that I think that you hit on a great point of that, like, exactly what you said. How many times can we say it? Like, it's just like any other form of diversity. There's really, really amazing, wonderful disabled people. There's also, like, wickedly evil disabled people, and there's funny disabled people and not funny and happy and sad. Like, we have, you know, the full human experience.

Gaelynn Lea:

Yep. Exactly. Well, and that's the thing is I was thinking I've been thinking a lot about this lately just because, you know, even the disability community, I think, can fall into this trap sometimes when we talk about nondisabled people, like, kinda sarcastically or whatever. Like, because we have a lot of you know, I mean, I too also have been wounded in ways by nondisabled people's assumptions or whatever. So you can you tend to side kind of like I don't know if it's a defense mechanism or it's easier or just, like, we do it because we're humans, but, like, we tend to categorize people. And I really want us to, like, watch not not just, the disability community, obviously. This is for everyone. This is very universal.

Gaelynn Lea:

Like, I think it's really important to name our experiences specifically that, like, hurt us and, like, be able to talk about them, but then really, really try to avoid overgeneralizing. Like, that means all nondisabled people are like this, or that means all, you know, women are like that. Like, anytime we start getting into generalizing, we are automatically, like, doing a disservice to that group of people because we're not acknowledging their full humanity. Like, each of us, kinda have we each bring something to the table, and we each have our own unique histories. I think we should definitely amplify those and especially with those who have been underrepresented, you know, in the disability community, like people of color and and queer people. And I think it's really, really important to tell their stories and to listen to their stories and learn something from them. But but that being said, none of us need to get down to the road where we're generalizing other groups that aren't exactly like us because we know on the receiving end that generalizing is harmful. You know? So I don't wanna do it to another group.

Gaelynn Lea:

So I try even though it's hard because you walk in you well, walk in. I don't ever walk into a situation. But, like, when I come into a situation where I'm nervous that something, you know, that my disability is gonna be perceived in a certain way or that I'm gonna run into a barrier, if I go into it with this mindset instead of trying really trying to stay open. I don't know. Does that make sense? I just think the universal the universality of disability, what we've learned really applies to, like, any other group, and we can all be learning from each other. Yeah. If that makes any sense. I feel like that was a little bit in the weeds, hopefully.

Lily Newton:

No. I think I think that makes complete sense and also is a great, like, reminder of that, like, the best way to, like, influence others is to, like, lead with your own. And, you know, when you think about that on a community level is, like, yeah, if we want nondisabled people to come in judgment free and meet us all as the human we are, we have to start the same.

Gaelynn Lea:

Absolutely. I mean, I'm not saying it's easy, and, like, we all fail at this in some way at some point. You know? Like, I have for sure. But, yeah, that idea of, like, if we are gonna have people meet us where we are, we really have to try to give the same to them, and and that's what would make a much more awesome society, just generally, I think, if we can try to meet each other, where we're at and still have boundaries, obviously. Like, you need to be able to say, like, this this isn't okay and, like, feel, empowered to do that.

Gaelynn Lea:

But but meeting people without assumptions that that you for sure aren't gonna be seen as full. Trying to see each other in that way is important to me anyways. The the older I get I'm 40 now, so I'm not really old, but, you know, I'm starting to look back and be like, what would make for, like, the next generation? Like, what can we be thinking about, like, the next step? Think how much we came, like, how far things have come since, like, 50 years ago, like, our parents' generation. I mean, being disabled back then would have been so different, especially, I mean, you know, as an electric wheelchair user, just, like, such a different realm. And so I think we've made a lot of progress, and then we have a lot of progress to go still with, like, really making it equitable. And, like Mhmm. And then what's the next step of, like, making it equitable, but also, like, compassionate to all people because that is really what we want. Right? Is that everyone is accepted for who they are.

Gaelynn Lea:

So, like, how do we actually make that work in our movement so that people see it as an example?

Lily Newton:

I love that, and I think that, you know, I think 40 is obviously very young, but at the same time, like, I think that the you know, I'm I'm 26, and I think about, like, myself as, like, a 13 year old or who's 13 now. And, like, we're just I'm so excited for the groups of kids, like, being born now that are gonna have such a wonderful group of, like, disabled elders

Gaelynn Lea:

Yeah.

Lily Newton:

Like, leading the way, like, and talking. And, like, you know, having podcasts like this that, like, just exist aren't like a exciting new thing. Like, it in the point you brought up about electric wheelchairs, yeah, like, technology wise, we're, like, becoming it only makes sense that the world should become more inclusive and accepting as we have, like, better technology and can make the world more accessible. Like, yeah, I just I think that's a really great point to start with and really hammers home the idea of Everything You Know About Disability Is Wrong. Like, as a podcast, it's our thesis to be like, let's make the world a better, more accepting place, And I love that starting from with us.

Erin Hawley:

Yeah.

Lily Newton:

It's really good.

Gaelynn Lea:

Yay. Thanks.

Lily Newton:

Well, moving on from a little bit of just getting to know you. Obviously, you have such a cool career. So, I just wanna talk about your life a little bit. Erin, do you wanna take us away with part 2 of the interview?

Erin Hawley:

Yeah. Sure. So your career really took off after the NPR Tiny Desk concert. So can you tell us a bit about that, and what was it like? How was your experience? And how has that impacted your your work and your your music industry?

Gaelynn Lea:

Yeah. Well, you know, I was a musician, like, hobby musician before that. I started violin in in, elementary school, in 5th grade, I guess, middle school. Played all the way through high school and then knew I didn't wanna keep doing classical forever, so I switched to fiddle. And I started joining bands, and I was really active, like, playing, like, a lot of shows every month, but they were all local. And then I was also teaching fiddle lessons. And what was fun is I was teaching my students to play the, like, typical way up on their shoulder, but I play very differently. I play, like, a cello, but it worked.

Gaelynn Lea:

And I had, like they were all beginner intermediate students of all different ages, and I was in, like, a really good place. Like, I was super duper like, I had just gotten married a couple years back, and we we had a house, and we were doing great. And then I entered the tiny desk contest. And because 3 people told me about it, it's not really my thing generally, or it wasn't my thing to be entering contests a lot just because I was pretty busy already. I was already doing a bunch of stuff. And then but when you hear about something 3 times or, like, seems like a universal aside from the universe, then I should probably actually enter. So I entered the contest, and when I won a month later, like, I hadn't heard anything in between. So I had no idea that that was coming until the day they called me.

Gaelynn Lea:

When I won, I knew for sure that life was gonna change a lot, but I didn't know how much. Like, and it's been great. It's just such a different it was such a left turn. Like, it it's such a big game changer. And so I started getting requests to play all over the country and to do some speaking. I had just started speaking the year before. I had had a really bad run-in with a counts county worker after I got married. She did my she, like I submitted all the paperwork to stay on a program for Medicaid for working people, employed people with you know, okay, who can stay on Medicaid, but she didn't, like, understand the program or something and and said I wasn't eligible for anything.

Gaelynn Lea:

I had just done, like, a ton of paperwork to get certified disabled and do all the stuff that you have to do to keep health care when you're employed. And she's like, well, you're not eligible for anything. And I was like, well, what do you suggest I do? And she said, I'd suggest you get a divorce. Like, we had just gotten married 3 weeks earlier, and I lost it. I, like, started yelling and swearing, which is not my typical MO, but I was so upset. Like, I couldn't express. So, anyways, after that experience oh, so so I'm yelling at her, and she got nervous. And I think she started write reading the fine prints.

Gaelynn Lea:

And she's like, oh, wait. You do qualify for health care. But if I had hung up the phone and gotten a divorce, like, how terrible would that have been? And I bet people have done that. You know? That's what it that's what I kinda started thinking. Wow. People really need to learn more about disability. Like, this lady's supposed to be working with disabled people, and this is horrible. So I started doing public speaking after that incident because I was like, I need to get like, something has to change, and I guess I'll have to tell them about it because, obviously, they're not getting it in school.

Gaelynn Lea:

You know, I actually had a friend in social work master's program, and she was saying, yeah. We only covered disability for, like, one day in our whole program. So, that was pretty eye opening to me. So I started speaking, and so when I got when I won the tiny desk, I was already kind of doing public speaking, and they really dovetailed together really well. So, my husband and I talked about it a lot and decided that we would try to tour, and we would kinda do a mix of public speaking and performance. It was mostly performance, but the public speaking kinda helped keep us afloat because, by the way, an independent musician does not make a lot of gigs, in the beginning of their career. So, that's how we made it work, and we, sold our house and got a van and, like, got a booking agent. And I was on the road, like, 9 months of the year for right up until COVID.

Gaelynn Lea:

Like, we're on our way to a bunch of shows when COVID happened. So it it was such a big turn. It was really just so fun to be able to have this unexpected gift kind of is what it felt like of just being able to try touring. I mean, like, I don't think I would have done it otherwise, to be honest. Not in that not at that level of, like, full time just on the road all the time. And we had so many great memories. Like, even when COVID happened, that first full year, it was just like, okay. This is weird and not good.

Gaelynn Lea:

Obviously, there's a lot of terrible things. But I remember just feeling so lucky that we had been able to do, like, so much traveling in the last 4 years before that that it was just a yeah. It was a really cool time. Hope to do that again someday. We haven't gotten back on full time on the road yet, but, but it was a really great experience.

Lily Newton:

I love that you started all of that with the 3 people telling you and the, like, universe called and you answered. Like, that's just

Gaelynn Lea:

It's really how it felt, though. Like, it was I remember being like, wow. Three people. That's that's weird. It was kinda like spooky almost where I'm like, okay. I guess I'll enter. And my friend filmed it for me in my office because we couldn't find a videographer and, like, it's on my phone. It's the worst video in the world that I submitted because I had no good tech.

Gaelynn Lea:

And, yeah, it it did feel really meant to be. Like, I do kinda believe in that, that, you know, if you're there and you say yes to the things that are in front of you that that feel okay, you know, like, don't say yes to stuff that feels horrible, obviously, but, but you just don't have to know where the road is gonna lead. You should just take it. That's how I've always tried to operate.

Lily Newton:

Yeah. And I think it's so interesting that, you know, you were in a really great place before this happened. So I think sometimes, as, like, a creative, there's kind of this the feeling of, like, waiting for your big opportunity and, like, that's when I'll be happy. And I think that it's really important to, like, build your happiness because usually it's actually, like, once you've created the life you need, that the life you want kind of starts to begin, I think.

Gaelynn Lea:

Yeah. I mean, this is not related to disability, but I think it's an important, like, life lesson is Mhmm. That I was playing in Duluth with a person named Alan Sparhawk. He he is a guitarist. He was in the band low until his wife, unfortunately, passed away last year, but maybe even a year and a half ago now because time went very fast. But, but he had been playing, touring all over, you know, the country. They were pretty well known, in the indie, like, lo fi music scene. And and I was playing in a side project with him for from 2011 till, you know, short like, after the tiny desk, we we still played 1 Snow Isle together, although we never toured together officially.

Gaelynn Lea:

But, like, he I got to see him in a much different stage in his career, and it's not like it was bad. He appreciated it. He loved it, but there's a whole new set of problems that comes the bigger you get as an artist. Like, it's not the grass is always greener is all I'm trying to say. And I remember learning just by watching him that there's really no point in wishing for your career to be somewhere that it's not because, a, you're not even enjoying what's in front of you, and there's no guarantee you're gonna get the thing that you want. And once you get it, it's like like anything. Like, there's goods and there's bads and, like, there's just there's no reason to wish away the present moment. And so I have always really tried with my music career, especially, but now writing this book and everything, like, you can have dreams of you know, I have, like, dreams of, like, wouldn't it be cool if the book did really well and, like, that somehow allows us to, like, buy a house or or something.

Gaelynn Lea:

You know what I mean? But but if you get too tied to that, like, it ruins the present, which isn't like, it's just kind of none of us are guaranteed anything beyond today. So, like, what's the point of tying your happiness to something that's not in front of you? So career wise, that's always been a goal. And when I start not doing that, when I start, like, envying other people's careers or wondering why I'm not farther or or is my disability keeping me at a certain level because of the media, the way the media works, I know that then I'm kind of, like, focusing on the wrong things. That's like a red flag to me to, like, step back and be like, what what is going on here that I'm starting to get, Louis' focus of making art and just, like, being grateful that that's what I do for a living, you know, which is cool in its own way even if it doesn't get, like, widely recognized, or as widely as I or whatever. I mean you know? So rant. Rant. Rant. The the end.

Lily Newton:

An important rant that I hope that, like, listeners, I hope you took that in because that's some, like, life advice that will allow you to live and enjoy your life if you actually take it to heart. Oh, one thing I wanted to mention that you talked about, for any of our listeners who are like, how come that lady suggested you get a divorce? I don't understand that. I suggest you go back and listen to from early season 1 when we were a tiny baby podcast with no video, our episode with Dom Evans, who is an incredible, activist. And, really, that episode, we talk a lot about, marriage inequality and how it really still affects the disability community and how, exactly Gaelynn's experience, that I'm so glad you stayed on the phone for and didn't just listen to. Like, there are a lot of people who have had to make that terrible choice of, like, oh, I'm gonna divorce this person I love and wanna spend my life with simply so I can get my health taken care of, which is you know, that's not simply not marriage equality if people are having to make choices like that that aren't choices at all. So I just wanted to mention that for anyone who might have been like, why would she have recommended that?

Gaelynn Lea:

And, like, I will say, like, Minnesota, like, life hack tip if you can handle winter, which does suck if you have a wheelchair. So I'm not, like, suggesting that it's easier or whatever. But, like, we have such good programming here, like, right now. I mean, it could change. That's the thing about marriage equality is that, like, in Minnesota, if as long as you can work $85 a month or something, I think it is, you can keep health care, and it doesn't matter what you earn, like, at all, which there's no ceiling to what you can earn. You just pay a higher premium. And it's pretty unusual. Like, I've done some research on other states and, like, even New York state isn't as good as that.

Gaelynn Lea:

So, like but the big problem that I have with it is it's still not really marriage equality because, say, I ended up being able to not work at all, like, not even $90 a month. So, I mean, they they do set a pretty low bar, which I think is good. You don't have to be full time or anything. But even so, if I was unable to work, we would still have to get a divorce because the only program where we where they don't count your income against you. And your asset limits are much higher, and they don't count retirement. There's some really good things about how Minnesota does it. So if you're in the market to move and you have a disability, look into Minnesota, except for adult think about I mean, if you hate weather that is cold, then still do not come here because you like it a lot. It's like we're about to get, like, 10 to 25 inches tomorrow of snow.

Lily Newton:

Wow. That is great.

Erin Hawley:

Like, you mentioned your state, but in New Jersey, very recently, they passed a change to the WorkAbility program. Okay. So if you have a job, like I do, there's no income, threshold. That's okay. And there's no asset limit.

Gaelynn Lea:

Wow.

Erin Hawley:

And your income, if you're married, does not matter as as far as using Medicaid services. So I think that's really awesome. Yeah. And I wish that really states have that. That's really

Lily Newton:

Good to hear.

Gaelynn Lea:

I mean, probably people like Dom have helped the discussion, honestly. Like, Dom's been talking about that for years. And, yeah, I don't didn't mean to interrupt you, but, I mean, it is changing. I think we are finally finally finally finally people are starting to listen, and I'm sure it's not unrelated to the fact that people like Dom have been really speaking up about it. What were you gonna say, though, Lily?

Lily Newton:

Yeah. Just that absolutely. And that, people who don't live in Minnesota or New Jersey can look to those states to know what to, like, advocate for and what to email your senators about and what to this is really important, and I completely agree of the props to all the people who have been talking about this for a long time, Dom included, leading the way to, like, states that are finally making changes and working towards that. So that's really great. And, again, for any listeners who are like, I don't know what you're talking about. There's a lot to learn about the laws that keep disabled people from being unable to live the lives we wanna live. But moving on from that into, you mentioned the way that you play your instruments, which I've watched some interviews of you talking about this, and it always makes me think about that one thing about the in my experience of the disability community, like, we because we live in an inaccessible world, we tend to be incredible innovators

Erin Hawley:

Oh, yeah.

Lily Newton:

And, like, come up with incredible solutions and new things. So you, have talked about the way that you play your instrument. Can you tell our listeners about that and, like, what that how you figured out how to play and, like, what that experience was like?

Gaelynn Lea:

Yeah. So, you know, the way you play a violin typically is you have it under your neck, on your shoulder, and your arm is outstretched in case you have never seen a violin. And, but for me, even the tiniest violin was too long for my arm. So I went to in 5th grade, you took a music listening test to, like, figure out if you could be in orchestra. And I I happened to be, although I didn't know it at the time, the the only student that year that got a perfect score. So the teacher was like, woah. She should definitely play something, but I don't know how to do it. You know? She was just a public school orchestra teacher, but luckily for me, she at least decided to try.

Gaelynn Lea:

I mean, I think that's if I can impart any, like, advice to educators of any field, but especially the creative arts because I think that that's where disabled people get the least served in some cases is people just don't understand how creative we are, and so they they, like, preclude us from trying. I just I'm reading Alice Wong's the year of the tiger, and she was not allowed to take, yeah, she was not allowed to take a pant a 2nd year theater class because there was a pantomime section.

Gaelynn Lea:

And the teacher just, like, couldn't understand that, a, you can pantomime sitting and or, b, just skip the section. Like, what like, seriously? So, anyways, creative arts, I think, sometimes really hinder people and, unnecessarily. So she luckily just said to me very honestly, I've never tried to adapt an instrument before, but I think we should try it. It might not work, but let's try it. So, I went in after school one day, and I couldn't do the violin on my shoulder. It was just too long. Even, like, the teeniest one for, like, the 4 year olds was too long for me. And then I tried the cello because that's actually what I wanted to play was, the cello.

Gaelynn Lea:

But it was even the, again, the smallest one, it wasn't that I couldn't reach the fingers because I could, but I couldn't operate the bow because Mhmm. It was too far down. Like, I couldn't reach low enough because my arms are pretty short. And so I think it was either her or me. My mom thinks it was me. I don't know. I don't remember, honestly. But one of us was like, maybe you could play the violin like a cello, which makes the bow not have to reach down so far because it's a much smaller instrument.

Gaelynn Lea:

And, and that pretty much worked, except I still couldn't hold the ball the way that a cello player usually holds it. And I was getting pretty frustrated, and I remember her thinking out loud, well, some bass players hold their bow underhanded. Like like, it's sitting in there kinda like the way you, I don't know, the way you hold a pencil, I guess, is the closest I can think of it. And maybe you can do that because it like, the angle, it wouldn't be coming from above. It would be coming from below. And we which is the direction my hands work, but they're a little bit anchored in funny angles because of the breaks that I had before I was born, and they all healed that way. So I don't have, like, complete full range of motion. And so but I could hold the bow like a bass player.

Gaelynn Lea:

And I think what's really cool about that and has actually been proven out by studies since then is that teachers who are helping students adapt instruments actually don't need to know very much at all about the student's disability going into it. They need to know a lot about how the instrument is played so that they can be creative, to be like, well, you could still achieve this doing this, you know, and, like, really be flexible. So she thought of the bass player, Behold, and that worked. And then I've been playing ever since, basically, and so it's been, like, 30 years now. And, but but I did not know, again, going into it, as I'm sure Erin can attest, like, you get so used to adapting that it just is sort of your default mode in the world Yeah. Because you just have to. And so I didn't actually think, oh, there might be a chance we won't figure this out. I just kind of assumed at some point we would figure it out.

Gaelynn Lea:

Right? Whereas I'm finding that many people with disabilities, have teachers that just don't just don't allow them to try. They just say this won't work. Sorry. You won't you're like, you can't do orchestra. You'll have to pick a different instrument. You'll have to do choir, whatever it is. And so it's really, really important for teachers to to realize that adapting does not usually if you have a supportive environment, the idea of adapting does not usually scare the kid with a disability. It's more like, is the teacher open to going into new territory? And I'm so glad that she was.

Gaelynn Lea:

I mean, neither of us thought I would end up being a professional musician, obviously. It was just like, you know, she did what any teacher should be doing, which is like, oh, this kid has an interest, and I'm gonna walk them through this path until they decide they're done. You know? Like, how many people play an instrument in high school and never touch it again afterwards? So there's no you don't have to start with a disabled student thinking, oh, well, they won't be able to be a virtuoso, so I shouldn't encourage them. Because most kids drop out anyways. So, like, just give them the same opportunity that you give other kids, which is just to try it. Right? So I got very lucky. And so that is how how it started. Her name was Sue Sommerfeld.

Gaelynn Lea:

She's still around, and I I'd think that both of us are like, wow. Good thing good thing I was you know, she was open to it because that was such a big deal for me in the long run.

Lily Newton:

That's incredible. I and I a really great lesson for educators that, like, you don't have to be an expert in disability. You actually just need to be an expert in what you're an expert in and be willing to try.

Gaelynn Lea:

And be willing to be creative. You know? Like, some technique. I had 1 orchestra teacher that was a teacher, like, not a not a private lesson teacher, but a conductor later in my school days who is less creative. And, like, luckily, I had private lesson teachers behind the scenes that were still pushing me. It's just really about being creative and kind of being willing to let go of that idea that, like, a set technique is a 100% mandatory. Because realistically, especially with, well, any kind of creative art, honestly, it's there to, like you wanna make something that's beautiful, that touches people. And if I can make a sound that sounds beautiful to me or to people listening, does it really matter if I, like, hold my bow different or if I finger the part a little bit differently because, I only use 3 fingers. I don't use 4.

Gaelynn Lea:

Like, things like that. Yeah. I think they do have to be, like, an expert in their field and then willing to just, like, push the you know, my best teachers, my private lesson teachers in high school, the reason they were so good is that anytime I could do something, like a technique that is classically like, a classically trained technique, anytime I could do it, they definitely, like, made me do it. Mhmm. But then if there was something that I couldn't do or I had to do it differently, they, like, let it go. And they just said, okay. This is how you're gonna do this. How I did that.

Gaelynn Lea:

You know? Like Right. They weren't allowing me to be like they they pushed me up to where I could be pushed. And I think that's really important personally, like, as somebody who got a lot out of the education of the music education. Like, you shouldn't say I don't have any expectations of you because you have a disability. So you go do whatever you want because you're not gonna learn that way. But it's, like, just being flexible about where you push and where you say, this isn't worth like, you know, it's not worth making you feel, like, lesser than because you can't do this one technique. Let's focus on what you can do, but you should do it well. You know? Did you did either of you experience that? Like, a teacher that didn't hold you to any standards because they didn't see potential? Because if there's in some ways, being open and flexible is really important.

Gaelynn Lea:

But on the other hand, expecting people to, like, rise to the occasion isn't, like, the worst thing either if it's done in a way that's like, honors your who you are. Does that make sense?

Erin Hawley:

Totally. No. I definitely I feel like most people who don't know me have no expectations Uh-huh. With me. And so it's like, there's a thing in my head. Anytime somebody compliments, like, my writing, everything that I do, I think in my head, are they saying it's good because I have no expectations? Uh-huh. For me, it isn't good because it's actually good. Uh-huh.

Erin Hawley:

So now I have, like, issue with, like, my own writing, and I have that conflict that I think about. And it's very stressful. It makes it really hard to, like, get anything done sometimes because I'm like, this is not I don't think this is that good, but everyone else says it's amazing. But is it actually? You know what I mean?

Lily Newton:

Yeah. I think that's, like, the insidious nature of ableism and how intense it is is that, like, it it can take away our own joy and our own success. Because I've definitely had that moment, Erin, where, like, someone will be like, you did so great at that. And I'm like, are you being able to serve? Did you think that what's happening here? And sometimes it was that, like, I just did really good, and then I'm negating my own thing. But I will say I work with you every day, and you are a phenomenal writer.

Gaelynn Lea:

Yeah. Yeah. Like, in music, I get that at shows where people will come up and say that was amazing, and there is I kinda just have to silence that part of my brain now. Like, I know that there are some people that come to a show of mine that has zero expectations or are there to be inspired or whatever it is. Like right? Like, that is just true. Like, there are some people there. But then there are other people that are, like, real music lovers that really do get something out of it. And I I guess the only standard that that ultimately, at that point, once you're, like, in the world that you can really listen to is, like, did I try my hardest? And if I did, then that is what I can do.

Gaelynn Lea:

And if and then how other people perceive your work. I mean, this is true of any artist. I think once your work is out in the world, man, you no longer like, how people perceive it is completely out of your hands, like, all the time Yeah. Whether or not you're disabled. And so it's it's, like, important for me when I'm like because, otherwise, I think I would ruin it for myself, like, enjoying performing if I was worried too much about our people just here for because I know it's a mix. You know, for you too, Erin, I'm sure some people are honestly, truly, truly, like, holy cow. That was an amazing essay or whatever. And then maybe some people are like the classic, like, oh, I can't believe they did this thing even though blah blah blah.

Gaelynn Lea:

You know, there's a mix, and so you can't, you know, either way it's like Buddhist of us. Like, you can't take compliments or insults too seriously. Right? I know. Easier said than done.

Lily Newton:

That's important, though, and as I think it's just for artists in general, for disabled and non disabled people alike, like, that is yeah. Your your work is yours until you put it out there, and then let let have an opinion of your own work. Don't let other people influence that, especially if you have faced, like, intense ableism throughout your life because that voice in your head can get loud. Like, the more you've had people look at you and be like, oh, good for you, the more you start to think that that's that when someone actually says, hey. Good for you, they are meaning it with that infantilizing, undermining tone. So, I do think it's an important practice that like, the the Buddhist concept of, like, not taking compliments or negative things too seriously because you gotta feel how you feel, and that's what's most important. Well, speaking of, like, working on new projects and things, before we move on to part 3 of our interview, I do wanna ask about, how's writing your book going? And can you tell our listeners about the book you're writing and how amazing it's gonna be.

Gaelynn Lea:

Yay. It is going pretty well. I you know, like, silencing the jerk voice inside of my head, I feel you know, you're always like, I should be way farther along than this. I'm like, this is terrible, blah blah blah, all the negative things that happen in your head. But, overall, I'm about halfway through, I think. So I'm writing the rough draft right now. I have a secret goal of trying to have the not secret anymore because it's on a podcast. I'll have the rough draft done by, like, July or August so that I have some months to edit it.

Gaelynn Lea:

Cool. And so then I'd really, really like it to come out in the fall of 2025. But, again, like, forcing art, it's impossible to do that, so I'll just kinda keep working on it. But it's been a really good experience reflecting on life. Like, I, you know, I was like, what am I like, people have been asking me to write a memoir for a while, and so I was like, okay. That's a cool idea. And and the more I'm doing it, I'm glad that I am because it kinda lets you reflect on, like, kind of like this podcast exactly. Like, here's what happened to me, and here's how I think disability was a part of this sit situation, and here's what you can hopefully take away from it because Everything You Know About Disability Is Wrong.

Gaelynn Lea:

Right? Like, that idea that's not the name of my book. But, but the idea that, I think the more I'm writing and the deeper I get into it, I realize that, wow, there is a lot of stuff that I wish people understood, and now here's a chance to write about it. I don't think I realized just how often that was gonna happen when I started writing because you kinda just think, oh, this was just what you know, like what your Erin was saying, I had a basic childhood. I'm sure you did, kind of. Right? But then if you really, really delve into it, there's stuff that you probably wish people had known or, like, had been able to approach differently or, like, what do you want for the next generation and that kind of stuff. I I'm reading, as I said, Alice Wong's book, and I also just have been reading more memoirs in general. And I'm a big doctor who nerd. In case you didn't see, I'm wearing a TARDIS necklace, which is the time machine in doctor who.

Gaelynn Lea:

There's an interview with the writer of doctor Who, Russell T Davies, and he writes he's a gay man, and he writes a lot of gays characters into his stories. And he's like, I do this on purpose because gay people have been around forever. We've been influencing the course of human events, but we haven't been allowed to tell our own stories for very long. And so there are still stories that haven't been told about the gay experience in public. Like and I it's just like like a lightning bolt. I was like, holy cow. There's a lot of disabled stories that haven't been told yet. Like, we've only had again, like, I know that the you know, like, there's a lot of room for growth in the disability justice movement and rights and and culture, but, like but really, it was the seventies when people first were were able to really even have control at all of the narrative at all.

Gaelynn Lea:

Like, isn't that ridiculous? Like Yeah. That's ridiculous. So, like, there there are definitely stories that still need to be told. There are definitely things that nondisabled audiences don't know. And so writing a book, at first, I was kinda like, why am I why why would anyone read this book? You know? Like, just the way that we all have our own negative voices. But the more I'm like, no. I want people to read this book, and I want people to read other disabled people's books because it's just not something I don't know if people know about. So I'm having a lot of fun.

Gaelynn Lea:

I'm in college. I just started playing music. That's where I'm at. So I'm, like, halfway halfway point. And it's been a good experience to just kinda, like, stretch my creative wings in a different direction than music, because writing a book is hard. And and, like, and just, you know, the, like, getting the voice and dialogue and all this stuff that I don't usually do when I'm playing. It's really fun. So I I really recommend even if you don't plan to publish it, like, especially the disability stories, especially other minority stories that just haven't been out in the world very long.

Gaelynn Lea:

Like, I think it's important for people to learn from each other because that's how you get that compassion I'm talking about, like, from the beginning of this podcast. Like, I don't have the ability to feel compassion for something that I don't know exists. Mhmm. And so, I just think the more stories that we can take in as a culture, the better. So that's sort of the point of the book. We shall see what happens. But Al Algonquin Press 2025. That's the goal.

Gaelynn Lea:

And it is on Algonquin Press, which is pretty cool because that's a bigger Mhmm. Agency. So I I I hope that it will be read by many people and spark other people to write their own memoirs. You know?

Lily Newton:

I'm so excited. I cannot wait to have it on my shelf. I'm so excited. It sounds like a really phenomenal book, and I think that, yeah, we talk about representation of disabled people. We've talked with, like, actors who have been on the show talking about, on screen representation, but, we haven't really talked much about book representation yet. And, like, truly reading, like, Judy Heumann's memoir, reading Alice Wong's memoir, read it like, I have so many on the shelf that have, like, really been crucial in my, like, own self acceptance, in looking back through my own memories and being like, whether it's like, oh, that was a moment where I faced extreme ableism, and I didn't realize it. Or, oh, that was a moment where, like, someone offered me a lot of support that I didn't real like, it it is kind of a fun practice to go back and go through those things. And I I think everyone who, you know, does the work of writing those memoirs are helping the rest of us, like, learn and hear our own stories through other people. Like, I think that's just really exciting, and I'm so excited to read your book. Thanks.

Gaelynn Lea:

Have you guys read Ashley Hsu, Ashley Hsu's book Against Techno Ableism yet?

Lily Newton:

I literally just put this on my, want to read on Goodreads. Someone sent it to me and was like, it is you that's my the friend that recommended it to me has phenomenal taste in books, so I want to read that for sure.

Gaelynn Lea:

Yeah. You should you should. I mean, honestly Yeah. Cool. It's and it's a book that I'm gonna recommend a lot of nondisabled people read too. It's stuff just putting into context, like, the history of disability, the presence of disability in the future, and realizing that a lot of the current problems we face are not, like, benign mistakes. They're, like, built in. And, I mean, it's stuff that you'll you'll kinda probably have heard of, but the way she ties it all together is really powerful.

Gaelynn Lea:

I really liked it. I was like, wow. Everybody should read this book. It should be a required reading for humanity. Personal opinion.

Lily Newton:

You know, I do hope that the more, like, memoirs and disability culture books that come out, the more, like, educators will see. Like, oh, this should be in my required curriculum. Like, the more there is, the more, like, pressure's maybe not the right word, but the more influence it has in like, to end up in classrooms.

Gaelynn Lea:

So

Lily Newton:

I think that's yeah. I I hope so too.

Gaelynn Lea:

Erin, what about you? Have you written a memoir yet that I don't know about?

Erin Hawley:

Uh-huh. I just started an online memoir class. So I might. I hope you do. I've I've I've written things, and I've published things, but, like, not my own memoir. I want to, though.

Lily Newton:

I really hope you do.

Erin Hawley:

Things to say.

Gaelynn Lea:

Yeah. I hope you do too. I mean, even with Alice, Alice's memoir is kinda like a scrapbook almost. Like, there's you know, she has, like, some essays and interviews, and it's it's a different format than I was expecting, but it's fun. So there's more than one way to do it too. Like, I think that was kinda nice to see.

Lily Newton:

I can't wait until we have all of these clips, and all of your books are, like, bestsellers because we have Lachi talking about the book that she's writing. We have you talking about your book, Erin, your future book. Like and then someday, we're gonna be like, remember when those books didn't even exist? And we were already talking about them. Like, everything you know, early trendsetter on books to read.

Gaelynn Lea:

Yep. It's true. Go back to our top 10 book list or top 20 or whatever you end up making. Yeah.

Lily Newton:

Amazing. Okay. So moving on to our third part of the interview. Everything You Know About Disability is Wrong is an Easterseals podcast.

Erin Hawley:

And at Easterseals, we're all about education, employment, the community, and really helping disabled people thrive in all aspects of your life.

Lily Newton:

Yeah. So we focus on, like, these main pillars, which can be a lot, and we, this season on the podcast, want to kind of talk about each of those things. And we, in this episode already, have had an incredible conversation about education, and I hope educators everywhere listen and take the advice that Gaelynn mentioned. Community is a huge part of what we talk about at Easterseals and what we're trying to make more inclusive in general. We had spoken to you before, and we're kind of talking about the community action of, like, calling out inaccessibility. What what what does it mean to be, like, a good community member to you or to help create inclusive communities?

Gaelynn Lea:

Yeah. I think, you know, the first step is to recognize if you have a gap of knowledge, like, to just like, if you're listening to this podcast, just stop and think, like, how often do I think about accessibility in the things that I plan, in the events that I host, in the groups that I form? You know? And if the answer is not a lot or none, then just recognize that and and work to do something about it. So, again, educating yourself and, like, reading some books, googling how to make events accessible, like, literally anything is better than doing nothing. And so start start there. But the biggest thing I can say is that, you know, we live in 2024, and the ADA has been around for 34 years. And so the big shift that I wanna see, in society, besides this idea that disability is not negative, it is a form of diversity that can be celebrated like any other form of diversity, but it's neutral. It I mean, our contributions, our culture that we created with disability are valuable. That's important to me.

Gaelynn Lea:

But the other thing is that in 2024, any place that isn't being inclusive or accessible, I think we need to start using the word discrimination. Like, it might be discrimination of omission, but a lot of times, it's more it's it's more than that. You know? Like, the few venues that are in Duluth, the music venues that are completely inaccessible. Like, not I wouldn't say there's a lot of perfectly accessible venues in Duluth where I live, but the ones that are blatantly inaccessible, like, they know that they're inaccessible. I've talked to them about it. They're just not doing anything about it. So they're not the victims at this point of of, like, oh, it's expensive. Because 34 years in, you can creatively fundraise.

Gaelynn Lea:

You can, you know, like, save your tips. Like, say not your tips, but, like, you know, you can have people say, do you wanna donate a dollar to the access button? There's, like, lots of creative ways in 34 years that you can be making yourself more accessible. And so at this point, I think stopping frequenting the places that are inaccessible is part of the solution at this point. Like, I don't go to the venues that aren't accessible in Duluth anymore out of principle because I wanna support with my dollars the places that have actually done the work because it's Mhmm. 34 years into the civil rights law. It's not a you know? And I I don't know. I wish that our government, helped businesses pay for some of these modifications. To be honest, it's an unfunded mandate.

Gaelynn Lea:

But but, like, let's be real. I pay my taxes every year. Like, I put I invest money in my business. Like, there is still not an excuse 34 years in to not address accessibility. And then to be a good community member, generally, it's just like what when you do Google, how to make your event more accessible. Just actually doing this stuff, like having captions, having ASL whenever possible. Like, I'm an independent artist. I literally do not even have a booking agent at this point, and I pay for captions for all my livestream shows just because it's, like, in 2024.

Gaelynn Lea:

That is what we have to be doing. And and I work with people that get ASL at as many shows as I can. Like, I'm not not saying my track record is a 100 because I, again, I am literally an independent artist just doing stuff by herself. But whenever ever ever possible, that is something I work in. And I I just wanna see non disabled people help us by taking the mantle up with us. So, if you are a musician and you're booking shows, I just I can't urge you enough to stop booking shows at inaccessible venues. Even if it doesn't impact you directly, like, the the world changes when people recognize that this isn't just some herculean task

Gaelynn Lea:

That's on the disability community. This is something that we can all be a part of the solution. So, my my thinking is, like, you know, you walk by an elevator and it's out of service. If you notice it's out of service, that's a good step. Right? But then are you gonna call the elevate elevator repair company? Because that would be the real step of the allyship. Not just recognizing that there's inequality, but, like, how can you actually help make it better? You know what I mean? Like Is that answering your question?

Lily Newton:

Yes. Absolutely. And I think that that is yeah. Like, the you know, where the whole beginning of this interview was saying, like, be open to as disabled people, not, like, judging all nondisabled people. Right? So now we're saying, like, okay, step up for us now too. Like, in that, we we need nondisabled people to be doing that too. When you when you go to take the train and you realize exactly what you said, Gaelynn, that the elevator is out, like, email someone from your transportation department and let them know, like, hey, it's at this stop. The elevator is out.

Lily Newton:

That is discrimination. And I really need to fix it.

Gaelynn Lea:

Yeah.

Lily Newton:

Yeah. And using that word discrimination, I think it's it you know, there's power in language and understanding, like, we we need to call it what it is. 34 years, you've done nothing. That's actually discrimination. And, like yeah. I think that kinda goes into, another one of the main things that Easterseals talks about is, like, accessibility in the workplace and creating employment for disabled people that is, like, not only just accept accessible on, like, basic levels, but also creates a sense of belonging and, like, doesn't make accessibility or accommodation feel like a burden. So you have a unique experience working in the music industry as an independent artist. Have there been times in your career where access has prevented you or allowed you to progress in ways you wanted?

Gaelynn Lea:

Yeah. Actually so before I was an independent musician, I was a lot of part time jobber things. And so, one of the jobs that I was applying for and eventually got was I was a secretary at the Boys and Girls Club in Duluth. This was a long time ago. But, apparently, after I stepped out from the interview, not the but not my boss, but my boss wanted to hire me. He was like, yes. I like her. But the guy above him was like, do you think she'll scare the kids? Which, by the way, you should not ever ask that question at any point in an interview process.

Gaelynn Lea:

So, like, wrong for many, many reasons that we probably shouldn't have to elucidate here, but, like, what happened was, lucky for me, my boss, the guy who wanted to hire me, said that is not an appropriate discussion topic, and we are not going to even talk about that here. That's not even legal. So, like, he knew that and said that, and then I got the job. But the thing is is I didn't even know that happens until, right, as I was leaving to teach fiddle lessons, some coworker who had been in the room during the interview told me that, which I was kinda like, oh, man. I wish I didn't know that, except for I was glad I knew that because it I made me realize that what happens when the disabled person is not in the room is just as important as what happens when we are in the room. And so when we're talking about accommodations, when we're talking about, can this person are they qualified for the job? Can we make accommodations that are necessary? The disabled people have to be in the room when those discussions are happening. Like, they just have to be because, otherwise, things like that happen. And and I had a college degree, and this was an entry level administrative position.

Gaelynn Lea:

And I really, really it was, like, pretty hurtful to find out that that's kinda, like, the takeaway that that one person had from when it felt like a really good interview. You know what I mean? It's like, well, she's scared of the kids. So so that's the first thing is like when you're when you're hiring, including the disabled person on all discussions about their disability, I think is really important. I mean, I'm not an employment expert but I can just say in my own life that is a really big deal. And then listening, like, one thing that disabled people haven't had a lot of in our society over the last ever, I guess I should say, is that when that when we speak up, that people actually do, like, do the thing that we're suggesting. Right? And so if I say I think I could do this job, but I would need this, not, like, questioning. Like, just try it. Like, what's what does it hurt? Like, let's try it out and see if it works.

Gaelynn Lea:

You know, there was another interview I went to where, again, the first thing the guy said was, now that I see you, I don't think you can do this job. And so the rest of the interview, which, again, is another illegal thing. These aren't like, what not to say during a job interview? So, and and so I spent the rest of my interview instead of, like, in the, offensive, like, defending, like, here's how I could do it and suggesting all these accommodations, which is definitely not what an interview should be like. But the thing is is that he didn't hire me anyway. So, like, the sad truth is I think I could have done that job, but I do think I would have needed some accommodations, but I thought of those already. But we I wasn't given a chance to try them. So I think just kind of listening and being like, what do you what do you think could work? Because often, we're not there because we wanna fail. Like, I don't go to a job interview thinking there's no way I could do this job.

Gaelynn Lea:

I go into a job interview thinking I believe there's a way that I can do this, which is why I'm applying. And so you have to find out what is it that that person thinks they would need as support and give that to them without making them feel bad about it. You know, working remotely, can't be lost. I'm on the Recording Academy, Chicago chapter board, and I'm really glad that I'm there because as much as everybody wants to get back to in person events, which I understand, I'm like, just from a disability perspective, like, we have to stay with hybrid. Like, we just have to. Like, disabled people are asking for it, which means we should be listening, and so let's let's keep doing it. And and the cool thing is if you have a disabled person in the room, and they can say why they believe in it, I got them really excited about it. Like, we're gonna make it a cool hybrid.

Gaelynn Lea:

It's not just seem gonna be like, oh, you go log in. Like, they were they were all about it, but I had to be in the room to make that suggestion. So the other piece of advice I can give in employment is really actively look to hire disabled people. Like like, I know that it's maybe feels new to you or, like, you're not sure how it will go, but it's really, really important if we're serious about creating equality that disabled people have jobs and are in the room so that they can help shape culture, you know. And then not just have them in entry level positions all the time. Like, I just did a thing for a church, and they were saying, how can our church be more accessible? And I said, well, you should definitely have a committee that addresses accessibility. But then even on the other committees, there needs to be disabled people on those committees. You know? Like, every committee should be have disability represented in it.

Gaelynn Lea:

And then even beyond that, like, what does your church leadership look like? Because, really, things change the higher up you get to the top where you can help shepherd in new ways of doing things. Right? And you have the authority to do that. So I think integrating people at all levels of employment too is really important. Yeah. And then in the music industry, just if you're planning a concert or a festival, just making sure that you're addressing disability as part of that and accessibility and disability representation both are important. It's not just one or the other. If you have a disabled reformer but the event is inaccessible, you have not done your job correctly. You know what I mean? So, those are all the things I can think of.

Gaelynn Lea:

I mean, employment is tough because, you know, I worked I was much happier, which is kinda, like, bittersweet. I was much happier when I became self employed. And I found out later that disabled people are much more likely to be self employed. And probably because it does suck to have to, like, advocate for yourself all the time. And I couldn't get promoted beyond entry level jobs pretty frequently. I would have, like, just one entry level job I had 4 interviews for. I was like, are they thanking me for president? Like, why is this entry? And then the next time they hired that same position when I went, to another job, they did a group interview and hired on the first interview. So, like, there was clearly discrimination there, but it I couldn't prove it beyond the shadow of a doubt, so I didn't do anything about it. But it was one of those things where I know that it's hard in the workplace. So what can you do to be part of a solution again? You know? That's that's your that's what you should ask yourself.

Lily Newton:

Absolutely. And hiring disabled people at every level. Like, you there is no there's nothing you can do to make a single disabled staff member feel inclusive and belonging because they're, like without even meaning to tokenize, you're tokenizing. And, like, yeah, I think that's just really important at all levels.

Gaelynn Lea:

Yeah. Like, oh my gosh. I went to UMD, the University of Minnesota, Duluth, which is actually pretty radically accessible, like, even before the ADA. All the buildings were connected, and they really tried to bring in disabled students. And, so but first, I went to Macalester College. I transferred, and I was the only student in a wheelchair at Macalester. There was one guy with vision loss in me, and their disability, coordinator was actually just the vice dean or whatever, and it was just on paper. It was not real.

Gaelynn Lea:

Like, the disability program was essentially nonexistent. So when I went to UMD, there's one day where I'm in the hallway and I see 3 other people in electric wheelchairs, and I started to cry because I was like, oh my gosh. I didn't even realize how alone I felt. You know? Like, I like, I had repressed it or, like, dealt with it that I didn't even know it was something I wanted. And I was like, oh my gosh. This is and so that's what yeah. At the workplace, of course, we can survive. We can even thrive in a workplace where we're the only disabled person.

Gaelynn Lea:

But it's such a relief to not be the only disabled person, you know, like, it's such a big deal. And so I look at Ramped, you know, our membership. If you go through and read the profiles of the members, there are so many of us that have done really cool things. And so to for people who are maybe listening to this podcast and thinking, well, sure, all levels of employment, but, like, what if I can't find any qualified? I really believe that there are qualified disabled people out there. Like, I just know because I'm reading the ramped profiles, and I'm like, holy cow. Like, all of us have done amazing things without support from society a lot of times. Or if it's support, it's like one person that believes, but not structural support. You know what I mean? And so if we've been able to do all that, like, think what you could do in a company that really supported disabled people.

Gaelynn Lea:

Like, there are leaders in our community that are ready for that kind of work. So I just really urge you to question yourself. Are you coming from a place of, like, disability is scary, it's negative, and is that what's, like, you know, changing your perception of this whole employment concept? Because if it is, like, just try it. Just try it. It's a good idea.

Erin Hawley:

I think it also goes back to, like, the discussion about expectations. Mhmm. Because, you know, like, don't expect us to be able to hold any job. There is that discrimination when applying to jobs that I've encountered.

Gaelynn Lea:

Yeah.

Erin Hawley:

But, yeah. But, Dylan, thank you so much for being on this podcast. I just love having you on. I'm so lucky to have met you. I've been following you on social media for a long time. So thank you so much.

Gaelynn Lea:

Thank you. This was really fun and what a great I mean, it's just so great to be able to talk to some other radical disable disability advocates in the community, and just thank you for making this podcast. It's really nice to meet you both.

Lily Newton:

Thank you so much for joining us today. Yeah. It's that feeling of just being in community with other people who get it. It's it's so wonderful. It really is, you know, for purely selfish reasons, the reason we wanted to make this podcast. Like, just so wonderful. And, yeah, truly, we've been giddy excited for today. And if you haven't heard Gaelynn's music, listeners, check it out.

Lily Newton:

It is incredible. And I yeah. Just thank you so much for coming on. Listeners, thank you for listening. Season 3, we're here first. This is it. And if you've been here since season 1, we're really happy. Thanks for sticking around.

Lily Newton:

And if you're brand new, go back and listen. There's some great episodes. Tune in next time for another episode of Everything You Know About Disability Is Wrong.

Erin Hawley:

If you like what you heard, go ahead and subscribe and leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts.

Lily Newton:

Thank you to our listeners. And as always, thank you to Easterseals for giving us the space and resources to share such authentic conversations from within the disability community, to our listeners.

Erin Hawley:

And we will see you next time for another episode of Everything You Know About Disability Is Wrong.

VOICEOVER:

Everything You Know About Disability is Wrong.

Lily Newton (commercial segment):

This is a podcast brought to you by Easterseals.

Erin Hawley:

You know, we actually work through Easterseals, but maybe our listeners don't know what we do.

Lily Newton:

That's true. Easterseals is leading the way to full access, equity, and inclusion for disabled people and their families.

Erin Hawley:

And did you know we've been doing this for more than a century?

Lily Newton:

This includes helping disabled people find meaningful employment and addressing health care needs for all ages.

Erin Hawley:

We're proud to serve communities across the country and ready for the next 100 years. For more, check out Easterseals.com.