Transcript

Lily Newton:

Hey, listeners. Welcome back to another episode of everything you know about disability is wrong. Today, we are joined by Jennifer Gasner. Jennifer Gasner received her BA in English from the University of Wisconsin, Platteville and her MS in recreation from Western Illinois University. Her work with independent living centers enabled her to learn about various disability programs throughout the country and ignited her passion for disability culture. She relocated to San Diego, California on her own at the age of 28.

Erin Hawley:

Jennifer is a member of the International Memoir Writers Association, and her writing has been published in several anthologies. Her debut memoir, My Unexpected Life, Finding Balance Beyond My Diagnosis, was published in 2023 and was a finalist in memoir for both the National Indie Excellence Awards and the Eric Hoffer Awards in 2024.

Lily Newton:

She was the author of the month for April 2024 at the San Diego Library and won a Red Ribbon from the Wishing Shelf. Her memoir was named nonfiction book of the year by the Chrysalis Brew Project in 2024. Welcome to the show. We are so excited to have you, Jennifer Gasner.

Jennifer Gasner:

Thank you. I'm so excited to be here.

Erin Hawley:

Totally. Yeah. I'm really excited. Before we get started, let's do our audio descriptions. This is Erin. I'm a white woman wearing a white t shirt. I have red hair, blue eyes. I'm sitting in my wheelchair in my bedroom, and I'll pass it to Lily.

Lily Newton:

Thanks, Erin. This is Lily speaking. I am a half Indian woman with brown hair that is dyed light pink slash kinda it looks kinda white in the front right now on this screen. Erin told me earlier I was giving Cruella De Vil vibes, which is always my goal. Genuinely an icon. And I'm wearing a black turtleneck as usual, my necklace that I'll fidget with a bunch throughout the episode. And I am struggling with eye contact today, so I might be looking down a lot just so that you could picture that. Jennifer, will you go ahead and give your audio description?

Jennifer Gasner:

Sure. I'm a blonde woman. My hair is pulled back, with a black and silver headband, a brown glasses. I'm sitting in my wheelchair in my bedroom, and I'm wearing a black top.

Erin Hawley:

So, Jen is it Jennifer or Jen? Do you have a preference?

Jennifer Gasner:

Jen's good.

Erin Hawley:

Jen? Okay. Cool. So this show is called everything you know about disability is wrong, and we always ask our guests, what do people get wrong about you?

Jennifer Gasner:

That I'm drunk. It it happened mostly when I was walking because the disability I have is progressive. So when I was walking, even with the walker, I'd still get accused of being drunk. And then when I started using my wheelchair my power wheelchair, I still get that here and there.

Lily Newton:

What a wild accusation. Just, like, to to bring up that because it came up a lot in your memoir that people would say things like that. And every time, I feel like, what what a wild thing to just tell us like, ask, are you drunk?

Jennifer Gasner:

Yeah. Yeah. It, it was annoying, and it still is annoying.

Lily Newton:

Certainly annoying. A lot of times on when we bring up this, like, what do people get wrong about you? It does kind of come to assumptions, and, like, that is an interesting assumption that I think not not everyone faces, but that one is pretty wild and shows how, like, people want to figure out an answer of, like, why why do people sound differently than me or what? And it's like, just just let people speak. I'm like, that disability is so not there and, like, didn't even think disability.

Jennifer Gasner:

Right. Right.

Lily Newton:

Oh, that's an interesting point that, yeah, we live in a world where, like, alcohol culture is much bigger than disability culture in the mainstream.

Jennifer Gasner:

Yeah. And then it's like, okay. She's in a wheelchair. Does that sort of give you a hint that maybe, you know, it's not because of alcohol.

Lily Newton:

Yeah. People aren't, great with context clues, but that's for them to deal with. Let's let's move into talking about your career and your memoir. I have to say, I devoured your book. I read it in, like, 2 days in 2 sittings.

Jennifer Gasner:

Love that. Thanks.

Lily Newton:

I love seriously, I loved it so much. And, you know, the timing of the universe is so awesome. I am very comfortable with my autism diagnosis, but I more recently got diagnosed with Ehlers Danlos syndrome, which is physical, and I've been dealing with a lot of, like, body pain. And I felt like your book came into my life at exactly the right moment in terms of just, like, getting to see the way that your thoughts and impressions and, like, what you expected of your future changed from the ages you are in the book. It was just seriously very healing for me, very wonderful, and I'm just so grateful that I read it when I did.

Jennifer Gasner:

And so lovely. Thank you.

Lily Newton:

Oh, I'm yeah. Seriously, it was a joy to read. And I'm wondering, like, what what was the catalyst? What made you decide to share that story?

Jennifer Gasner:

Well, I had always wanted to be a writer. I dammed in really bad poetry when when I was little, and well, I shouldn't say a little. Up through my teenage years, probably. And I ended up majoring in English with an emphasis in writing. And it was always something people had told me, oh, you should write a book. And it was just really overwhelming to me when I was working full time. But 10 years ago, I had to stop working. So I was like, okay. I guess I'm gonna start writing.

Lily Newton:

That makes sense, which, you know, is another form of working. Like, you're definitely doing your work.

Jennifer Gasner:

Exactly.

Erin Hawley:

I totally get, like I'm also an English major, and, like, everyone knows they should read a book. It it tells me so much to the point where I'm like, no. I'm not gonna do I'm not gonna do that. But, yeah, I'm just really excited to have you on as, like, a fellow writer, nerd, English English major. So yeah.

Jennifer Gasner:

Yes.

Lily Newton:

One of my major hyperfixations when I was growing up was John Green, and I, like, still follow all of his videos. And he has a video where he's like, write your memoirs, whether it's like a collection of dis whether it's a collection of, Post it notes or you write drawings every day or you just journal for yourself. Like, it's so important to document these lives we're living, and I thought that was really incredible. And now I'm, like, obsessed with reading memoirs.

Jennifer Gasner:

Yeah. I the I meant a mother whose girl, I think, is 10 or maybe even younger, like 8. And, you know, she's she was diagnosed with a rare disability. And she's going to eventually lose her sight and everything, and so she's trying to figure out at such a young age things she can do until she gets to the point where she loses her sight. And I really encourage her to start journaling and writing her story, which, of course, she could still do when, she loses her sight. But, you know, we need more of our stories told by us out there.

Lily Newton:

Absolutely. A 100%. Because I we had a meeting today at work, and we talked about this very thing that it's really important for disabled people to tell their own stories, especially to avoid, you know, infantilization, to avoid pity, and all these incorrect assumptions about disabilities that are so prevalent because for so long, we have not told our own stories, and they haven't been, like, front and center.

Jennifer Gasner:

Yes. And I am actually in the back of my mind at some point, I want to create a space for disabled people to have their voices heard by telling stories they've written, whether it's fiction, nonfiction, whatever it is, poetry. So at first, you know, we talked about, well, authentic casting, that would be difficult, and I finally said it's it's gonna be more powerful if somebody with disability says it.

Erin Hawley:

Right. It's it's not hard to have disabled people play disabled people.

Jennifer Gasner:

Yeah. If we're out there, just hire us.

Jennifer Gasner:

Yeah.

Lily Newton:

So I wanted to, talk about in your book, you deal a lot with the way that you were impacted by negative portrayals portrayals of disability that we're just chatting right now, and specifically telephones. And yeah. And, how that really impacts internalized ableism. And I had a very similar experience at with the same telephone. I'm not gonna name names, but, you know, you can figure it out. And, you know, I had the experience of not wanting to identify as disabled because all I saw was pity, and that wasn't me. So do you have any advice for people who may have that internalized ableism, and how did you overcome that?

Jennifer Gasner:

Well, man, internalized ableism is something I'm still trying to unpack. You know, it doesn't, disappear, and it's very subtle. Like, I basically kinda thought I had it all figured out until a couple of years ago when I was like, oh my god. That's that's internalized ableism. You know? What am I doing? So it's it's difficult. Like, I want people to not believe that hype, basically. Don't fall into the trap like I did when I saw somebody who had the same disability using a wheelchair. I freaked out. To me, that meant my life was over. You know? And I didn't understand, this culture. I didn't get the social model. I didn't have any of that. So I just know that you have to understand or you you can't give it into all of what you see.

Lily Newton:

Yeah. Absolutely. I Erin, you've taught me so much about that in in these last, like, year and a half hosting this podcast of that, like because there's also a shame. Like, as you're starting to overcome your own internalized ableism, then you have to deal with that shame of like, oh my gosh. Am I a terrible person? Because I didn't wanna associate with this. And and that's, like, a hard hump to get over, and then you have to realize that, like, when you're inundated with this media that especially I mean, I was born in 1997, so I know I missed out on all of the havoc that the eighties nineties could've could've wrecked in my brain. So I've I've seen I've seen stuff that you you you both grew up with. And, yeah, it's, like, devastating.

And, of course, you're gonna have that kind of, like, need to get over it. And I think that it's very, aligned similarly with, like as a woman who grew up in the nineties and early 2000, like, having, like, a lot of fear around gaining weight because of how weight gain was portrayed in the media. And now as someone who has, like, done the work and seen how insidious both fatphobia and ableism is, it's easy to have a lot of, like, oh my god. I can't believe I even had those thoughts. Like, I'm such a terrible person. But instead of taking that shame on yourself, listeners, I think it's really important to understand that, like, when the media is shoving a narrative, it's very hard not to be affected by it. So rather than shaming yourself for, absorbing what you saw, I'd say just create new stuff. Tell your story.

Like Jennifer said, I hope that girl who was just diagnosed tells her story so that we can you know, I it's just really important then goes back to what we're saying about telling our own stories because I know, like, Erin and I don't pity ourselves. I don't think you pity yourself, Jen. Well, our stories are not gonna not gonna push those narratives because they're coming from us. But I'm sure that if people wrote about us that didn't know anything about us, there'd be that hint.

Jennifer Gasner:

Oh, yeah. I would say that. Like we grew up before the AGA, so there was not a lot of disabled people our age. In, like, in my school, I was the only visibly disabled person, and so the only interaction I had with disability was pity at telephones. So even just putting ourselves out there right now is gonna change the future for kids who will now have much better representation than Yeah. Yeah. Me it always amazes me looking at your podcast and others out there, how much people are talking about this now because no one talked about it in the eighties.

Erin Hawley:

It was, like, pushed to the side.

Jennifer Gasner:

Completely.

Lily Newton:

Yeah. I honestly am so grateful to the, like, disabled teens right now and early 20 year olds who are on TikTok and are just, like, so boldly sharing their stories and being visible. Like, it's so important to be visible because then it takes the, like, intensity of disability away, and you get to see that, like, it's just a normal part of life, and we're normal people. And that's I I one thing I really loved about your memoir is that, like, obviously, your diagnosis and coming to terms with disability is a through line of the story, but, also, it's it's ultimately a story about, like, having to adapt to a world that is not necessarily what you thought it was between the ages of 17 26, which I don't I don't care if you're disabled or not. That is a time in life where everyone has to go through that, this realization of, like, oh, what I thought growing up in my hometown is not actually the entire world. And, like, the major topics in your book, you know, you're talking about boys and friendship and, like, boy I mean, granted, not like pop boy bands. You have very great music taste. I the second you mentioned The Cure and, like, Depeche Mode, I was like, oh, she's so cool.

But, but, yeah, boy bands and friendship and, like, the uncertainty of the future, which is again, yeah, that's just that's just what 17 to 26 year olds do. So disability aside, I think it's just an incredible memoir about that time of life and what that time of life can be like. So I'm wondering, what was it like reflecting on that, time of life at the age you are now, like, looking back and, you know, reconnecting with your 17 to 26 year old self?

Jennifer Gasner:

It was sorry. It was incredibly healing for me. I learned to give myself some compassion as well as my parents. So it it was incredibly healing even though parts of it were definitely embarrassing when I look look back on them. But I also, you know, gave myself grace because I was young. You know? And I I did what I thought was best at the time and with the knowledge I had.

Lily Newton:

Yeah. Even, like, reading it as a 27 year old, like, just being able to empathize with young Jen being so caught up in a boy who just clearly treats her like crap. I was like I was like, man, I just wanna go hug 18 year old Lily and the boy. Tell her to just leave that boy she's absolutely obsessed with alone. And, like, it was just it's it really I'm so happy to hear it was a healing experience for you writing it because it did feel like a healing experience reading it. Like, that age to be a 17 to 26 year old woman is just there's so much going on in life, and you feel like you're supposed to know everything, but you know nothing. And, like, romance feels like it's gotta be the center of the world, and, like, it just it's truly like, I'm I'm just so glad that you picked that section to go back to and look on because, again, like, disability aside, I think it's just a an incredible section of life to look at, and, you know, I think that some people might not identify it as disability because I know people have a that's, like, a hard word for people to come into, but when you leave your home for the first time and go live on your own, that is the time when you learn, like, oh, I need support. I need help with this, or I can't do this thing. And, yeah, I think that your book gave us such a compassionate look at that time of life.

Jennifer Gasner:

Oh, thank you. That's really great.

Lily Newton:

Yeah. Such a fun read. And, also, just, like, listeners, you gotta go check out the book because you had such an interesting I mean, you were, like, in the music scene very much so. Dave Matthews plays a big role in this book. You should, like, go read it. And it's really incredible. Like, you, had that kind of ideal, like, nineties groupie vibe going on. Mhmm.

Lily Newton:

What was it like looking back at, like, that given how the music industry has changed and, like, looking at what that was like for you?

Jennifer Gasner:

It it is so funny how everything has changed now compared to what it was then because first of all, ticket prices were not the banner now. Yeah. You know? So that that was a huge difference. And it's what are the things at that was kind of a con for moving here from Wisconsin was in Wisconsin, I was able to get free tickets to almost any show not here in San Diego. It's a totally different thing. So I I don't go to as many shows as I once did, and part of that probably is age. But I just don't wanna spend the money. But, yeah, I mean, the ticket price is so much different now.

Lily Newton:

This could become an entire podcast episode on how ridiculous ticket prices are.

Jennifer Gasner:

I know.

Lily Newton:

Because music is such I mean, can be such a healing experience and such a joy to, like, really love a band. And now it feels like it is becoming a very exclusive experience for a certain class of people, and I think that's really a shame. So maybe this is just a moment to plug. Like, go to your local house shows. Go to local venues. Local venues. Yeah. Make make your venue accessible. Like, it's really important.

Jennifer Gasner:

And, honestly, that's the smaller venues are probably where you see the best music.

Lily Newton:

Absolutely. I am in Chicago, and there's so many amazing venues.

Jennifer Gasner:

Oh, yes.

Lily Newton:

So you get to see just some and, I mean, I've spent stupid money to see big artists and, but, you know, the shows that I've gotten to see for, like, $20 are the best, and it's usually artists who are really working hard. So, you know, I I was just so excited when I read your book, and music was such a big theme throughout it. Because I was like, oh, I could geek out about music forever. It's so cool. Wow. All that stuff.

It's so cool, and it's such, like, a cultural touchpoint that I think everyone can relate to if you're like, I don't know about reading a memoir about disability. It's like, well, it's not just a memoir about disability. It's about a teenage girl who gets enthralled in the music scene, and, like, it's just really, really cool there. But I don't wanna talk about music the entire time, so we can we can move on. I think bringing it back to the kind of internalized ableism conversation, in the book, you talk about that, as a young woman, you felt like you had to find a partner before you had to use a wheelchair full time, which, you know, again, with everything we just said at the start of this interview, makes total sense why your brain would have thought that at in the nineties. Like, it makes total sense. But I love that your book kind of unravels that thought that you needed to have because that didn't happen for you in the book.

Erin Hawley:

I felt that while I've been in the wheelchair my whole life. There is, like, that initial, oh my god. I don't don't date now. What what do people think of my disability? How will people react to me on dating sites. And for a long time, that stopped me from dating at all. But, so tell us a little bit about that, and, also, how did you meet your current, boyfriend?

Jennifer Gasner:

So I so let's see. I don't even know where to begin. I well, so I started using a wheelchair, I think I was 26, 25. And, I I knew at that point, I knew that there were women who had found partners and things like that. So I learned from example, primarily, I think. And then my current boyfriend, he used to work for a company that modified vehicles for people with disabilities to drive. And, he built 2 of my vans for me.

Erin Hawley:

That's so cute. It's like Yeah. A romance novel.

Jennifer Gasner:

Yeah. And we were friends for, like, 5 years before we started dating.

Lily Newton:

I love that. And I also love, like, the emphasis that you put in the book on that you were like, I need to find someone at this time, and then, like, it doesn't happen in the book. And then in the epilogue, you just casually drop like, oh, yeah. I live with my boyfriend. We've been together for 13 years. Like, kind of a kind of kinda cool of me. Like, I love that. And, yeah, it's like a what pad meet cute story. That's amazing. And you two live together?

Jennifer Gasner:

Yes.

Lily Newton:

Amazing. Our whole first season of the show was entirely based on talking about love and dating because it feels like such a major misconception, which you talk about in the book. I think I think the exact quote is like, oh, well, if you're disabled, everyone thinks you're asexual. Like, it's just the thought, which is also really invalidating to disabled asexual people. Like because they exist. And, but I think that that's just, like, so wild that that is such a misconception and that, people would just assume that people with disabilities don't date, because we have friends. We have partners. We're normal people.

We do these things. What has, like, being in a long term relationship kind of taught you about yourself?

Jennifer Gasner:

That's a good question.

Lily Newton:

Yeah. It's not what you expect us to come on here and yeah.

Jennifer Gasner:

I think it's kinda taught me, sorry. My dog is making What? I think it's taught me, like, to let go of small stuff. Like, in the bigger scheme of things, you know, things don't matter. I not to say that I don't voice my opinion or my, my dislike of something, but I know, like, to kinda check myself before I go off into some and make a big deal out of nothing.

Lily Newton:

Yeah. A long term relationship will teach you a lot about, like, what actual healthy communication looks like. And it isn't always communicating every single, like, nitpicky thought, actually. Well, that's amazing. Write something down.

Jennifer Gasner:

And, really, how different communication is between a man and a woman.

Lily Newton:

Oh, that's true.

Jennifer Gasner:

And I've learned that not only from my relationship, but, like, with my friends who are going through very similar things.

Lily Newton:

Yeah. Absolutely. I am bisexual, so I'm attracted to men and women. And there are I mean, the gender binary is we're we're getting rid of it in a way, but there are still, like, major things, especially in in, like, the way women are socialized. I think that we, tend to speak a little different because we were socialized so differently. But, yeah, I think that relationships can be but friendship or romantic can be really healing for me, at least, as a person with disabilities, like, knowing that, knowing that people will care for me and support me, and it doesn't have to be, like, an even there's no score, I guess, is what I'm trying to say.

Lily Newton:

Yes. And that's a that's a major misconception, I think, that, like, nondisabled couples could learn a lot from, especially, like, inter disabled couples, of, like, you know, my partner doesn't have physical disabilities at all. And I, like, this week, have been having just a major EDS flare up. Like, my joints all hurt so bad, so I'm not really able to do the, like, household tasks that I normally do. And I feel like a previous version of myself would have been like, this means next week I have to do extra work, or we have to have a 50 50 split division of labor. Like, that's like a conversation, and that's just not reality. Like, you love someone and you do what you can so that you both enjoy life. Like, at least that's my experience.

Jennifer Gasner:

Yeah.

Erin Hawley:

And in my relationship, my partner does the physical things that I can't do, but I also support them, like, mentally emotionally, I guess you would say. So, like, we are taking care of each other that fit best with our disabilities, and I think that's really important. Like, if you're dating, just this assumption if you can't physically care for somebody and, you know, like, you know, have them do the dishes or whatever, it doesn't mean you're not a caretaker and you're not caring for your partner.

Jennifer Gasner:

Yeah. Or that that's all you're looking for is somebody to take care of you.

Erin Hawley:

Right. Yeah. I do think with my disability specifically, like, my partner has to do some physical labor and because I can't, you know, clean myself or anything. So there is that layer of it, but we always talk it through if there's any ever, like, disagreement or any if they're tired because they have depression. So sometimes it's hard for them to, like, do physical things. But it's still we we have great communication, so we just work it out. And having other support networks besides your partner is very, very important to have.

Jennifer Gasner:

Yes.

Lily Newton:

And I think it's part of that overcoming internalized ableism to realize, like, it's okay to ask for help. It's okay to get support, and especially when the narrative if you do have a physical disability, that narrative out there of, like, you are just looking for a caretaker can make it really hard to not wanna, like, fit into that stereotype, but, like, don't don't put that pressure on yourself.

Jennifer Gasner:

Yeah. And I wish what one of the things in writing the book to what I realized is I didn't ask for help a lot when I probably should have out of, fear of being perceived as weak. And so I think that's an important aspect too is to realize asking prompt doesn't mean you're weak.

Erin Hawley:

Absolutely. And it doesn't mean you can't be independent.

Jennifer Gasner:

Right.

Lily Newton:

Yeah. That's so well said, both of you, and I hope that there's a listener who needed to hear that because I think it's really important. I wanna move on to one more topic before we get into our special employment segment. But, one of the main topics that comes up throughout your book is talking about problems you had with bladder control, And I really appreciate how open you were about this, and also how open you were about the deep shame it caused you. And I think that, you know, part of getting rid of ableism in this world is understanding that, like, you can't just, like, not be ableist. You have to be anti ableism. And I think that a big thing to reckon with for yourself, if you listeners, if you're on a journey of being like, I want to be less ableist. I want to, like, be an anti ableist person, is to really look at yourself and be like, am I afraid of bodily functions? Because, truly, Because, truly, it is such a, like, area of ableism that I don't think people realize is ableist.

But, like, I I spit a lot when I talk because I, like, stutter a little bit. And for so long, I hated myself for it because I was like, spit is so, so, so gross. I'm the worst. And then I was like, actually, every single mouth has spit. And I feel I think I'm just saying all this because I am just so pro, like, burping, farting, spitting, letting your body exist. It's just so important to not hate yourself for having a human body. So how has your acceptance of your bodily functions and bodily needs, evolved in as you've gotten in further into adulthood?

Jennifer Gasner:

Well, my when I I moved here shortly after the book ends and moved to California, and I lived with a friend of mine who's a paraplegic. And she really helped me understand, like, different things, like, and not really be so ashamed of it. We're 4 wheeling with jeeps and going on off road trips that I also went on. Obviously, there's not a bathroom in the middle of wherever we we were. So she really helped me get comfortable with asking for people to stop and to give me some privacy. Well, I used my catheter, and so that really helped me a lot because she didn't care, and I was like, okay. And why should it be the big of a deal?

Lily Newton:

Yeah. It's it's wild how, like, even just saying the word, like, pee or poop, it's like it feels embarrassing and awkward. We don't we don't even call it like, we don't even say I have to go pee, but I need to use the restroom. Like, it's so fragile, and, like, we can't talk about these things even though literally every single person does these things, like, whether we do them differently or not.

Jennifer Gasner:

So now I have a super with Katherine, and I have a white bag. And I have a classmate. So I don't really actually need to get or go to the bathroom. You know? And I've learned learned to be okay, like, emptying my bag outside if I have to and things like that because, you know, it's just what I have to do, and that's it.

Erin Hawley:

Totally. Like, I don't have a catheter, but I'm gonna I'm gonna announce something on this podcast. That I've had a lot of shame for for a long time. I do use diapers because I can't sit on my toilet. And for a long time, I had that shame like, oh my god. And every time I've told somebody, like a partner or whoever, they're like, yeah. Okay. And I'm like, why is this a big deal in my head? You know? It's just that internalized ableism that we have.

Jennifer Gasner:

Yeah. When I told my current boyfriend that this was, you know, back in 2010 when I don't even think smartphones were out yet. Maybe they were. But I still have a flip phone, and you had to, you know, press the number on your phone, like, 4 times to get whatever letter.

Lily Newton:

Oh, yeah. T 9 texting.

Jennifer Gasner:

Yeah. T 9 texting. So and we had this conversation over text. I don't know why we didn't just call each other and but I told him over text, and he was like, oh, that must be difficult, which I think was a great response instead of being like, that's gross. You know?

Lily Newton:

Yeah. I think that's such a compassionate response of, like, how does that make you yeah. You know, that's a I'm really glad you shared that, Jen, because I think that sometimes when anytime type of, like, admission or, like, this is something I feel, like, ashamed to tell. Like, this I'm gonna share. If you don't know how to respond to a friend telling you something like that, reacting with, like, some compassion or, like, what is that like for you? Or, oh, that must that sounds difficult for you is a really great way, to turn that around. And, Erin, I appreciate you sharing that on this podcast. It is I've never seen it. I've never seen it.

Now you have on our platform, which is good because I think that, yeah, it's nothing to be ashamed of, and it's honestly an awesome innovation. Like, diapers are awesome. And and, frankly, we talk about we talked about concerts earlier. Frankly, if people could get over their ableism and, like, realize that diapers aren't a big deal, like, you could use them, that's how you get barricade at a concert. Okay? You you you don't leave the line to go to the bathroom because you wear a diaper to the concert.

Erin Hawley:

Truly. Diapers. People wear diapers in Times Square for New Year's Eve. People wear diapers.

Lily Newton:

I didn't know that.

Erin Hawley:

Yes. That's amazing.

Lily Newton:

Because it's an awesome thing. It's like, okay. Great. Being is inconvenient in this world where there's not bathrooms everywhere. We've figured out a way to make it less inconvenient. I

Jennifer Gasner:

It's more inconvenient for women. Absolutely. Oh, there's a book called Invisible Women about, like, the data surrounding the way things are built, that excludes women and talking about the way bathrooms are built. Oh, really? Set me into a rage. I definitely recommend that book. It's called yeah. I think it's Invisible Women is what it's called. Okay. I want us to get to the employment part, but I have one more question here. Along with the acceptance of bodily functions and fluids, I also want to talk about the fact that in your book, the fact that you have a progressive disability that was going to get worse over time is a big part of the extreme concerns you had as a 17 year old.

Lily Newton:

And I think that the reaction that a lot of nondisabled people have to progressive disabilities kind of gives a little, like, insight into the fact that a lot of people are in denial about the fact that, like, living in a human body is to have a degenerative, like, or progressively disabling experience. Like, that is part of being human. So I'm just curious what your thoughts are on that and if you've like, how your thoughts on the progression of a body has changed throughout time.

Jennifer Gasner:

Yeah. I've never really thought of it that way, but you're right. And, my best friend who also uses wheelchair, she and I talk about how, like, we tend to deal with aging better than people who haven't had to deal with disability. Like, we understand things are going to change and this I mean, aging is still not fun necessarily, but we also understand it's it's just when it happens.

Lily Newton:

Yeah. There's a level of, like, making peace with this inevitability that I think that when you when you've already confronted internalized ableism, you've confronted so many of the things that come with aging. Like, you know, if you if you've already confronted the fact that, like, the way people look is not their worth, then it's a lot less scary to get wrinkles.

Jennifer Gasner:

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Even even last night, my boyfriend and I were going through Costco, and we were going by the part where they have, like, all the beauty, the beauty products and skin care and all that. And I was just thinking myself, my god. How much money did I used to spend on that? You know? Or just that's the other thing too. Like, some friends of mine are really into dyeing their hair and all keeping away the gray hair. I haven't dyed my hair for, like, 10 years.

I'm totally fine with that. You know? So and that's a whole other conversation about even getting your haircut as a person who uses a wheelchair and can't transfer, that's

Erin Hawley:

It's hard.

Jennifer Gasner:

Yeah.

Erin Hawley:

Yeah. Every time I go to the hairdresser, they're like, can you take off your hairdresser? I'm like, no. I can't disassemble my chair to get a haircut. Like

Jennifer Gasner:

Yeah. Ridiculous. Yeah.

Lily Newton:

Yeah. I love that. I think it's kind of a I like the the spin on that. Like, it's a freeing experience to or peaceful even to be like Yes. I'm just gonna do let my body do what it needs to do. Let it change as it needs to change and not try to keep up with these ridiculous beauty standards, spend $1,000,000 injecting things into my body to try to look a certain way. I do think that is, yeah, definitely an upper hand of combating the, like, influx of fix your face, fix your hair, fix your nails, do this. Like, as a woman, I've already combated that with, like, well, people are gonna think I'm different because I dress weird, because I dress to fit my autistic mindset.

Like, I'm done. I don't care. Like, I'm no longer trying to fit anyone else. I'm glad you would have that experience too. I'm like, yeah. Aging is cool and exciting. Well, thank you so much for being so open and vulnerable with us about, like, everything and just being so open and real in your book. I mean, it embodies authenticity and reality.

We're we should be out of time, but I'm gonna ask you a couple more questions if you're okay with it. Yeah. Because you are talking about thank you. You talk about in your book, you know, you're in college in your book, so you're thinking a lot about your career and what's coming after that. And, at Easterseals, we are always trying to, like, create more inclusive employment, and we offer a lot of employment services. And, I think National Disability Employment Awareness Month is so important because people just don't really think about the fact that it matters. Like, just like people think that we don't date, they often think that we don't work at all, which is just not the case. So I'm curious.

What does inclusive employment mean to you? Just hearing those words.

Jennifer Gasner:

Well, I think it's really about it's not just being the token hire, but also giving permission. I don't know if it's permission is the right word. But they're allowing somebody to do something at their own pace in their own way and not necessarily thinking it's it's gotta be done a specific way.

Lily Newton:

Love it. That was a phenomenal answer, and I completely agree. What a great sound bite. So what barriers or challenges have you encountered in your career, and how were they addressed or not addressed?

Jennifer Gasner:

Of so many, it's there's, again, a lot of preconceived notions that you can't do something, so no one really asks you to do something. Or or I had one experience where I applied for a job and immediately that, that, like, head of the organization or whatever was like, hi. I'm John Smith, and this is a historical building, so we can't retrofit it. And they didn't need to. My workspace was accessible. And, you know so right away, there are these assumptions that she has disability. She's gonna need all these different things, and it's gonna cost all the all this money and you know? That's just not the case.

Erin Hawley:

Yeah. But you give the assumption that that accommodations are really expensive, and that's just not true. And even, like, disabled people often know exactly what they need and can get what they need with very minimal support that's not expensive. And there's this this whole idea that disability accommodations are a hindrance to a company is just absurd.

Lily Newton:

Absurd.

Jennifer Gasner:

Well, I have this when, gentlemen always tell this story about, this university that had a little person attending. So they spent all this money to make the, water fountain lower, and they showed it to her like, hey. Look what we've done. They're so proud of themselves, and she's like, great. But I just get a cup and, you know, ask and get some water from the tall one, and, yeah, they were like, oh. So they didn't mean to spend $10 or whatever it was to make this accommodation.

Lily Newton:

Yeah. We're a pretty adaptive community as disabled people. You you should tear it out.

Before spending a lot of money on accommodations, you should make sure you have some disabled people in the room advising on what you're doing.

Jennifer Gasner:

.

Lily Newton:

Yeah. Okay. So we've heard the bad things you've faced, but can you share an example of when you felt truly included and supported in a workplace?

Jennifer Gasner:

So my last employer was very good. Like, I I have been there, I think, for about a year, and they were like and I was kinda hesitant, but I asked if I could get a standing desk an adjustable desk, and my boss was like, of course. Whatever he needed. You know? That that was huge. And then so I worked at the, University of California San Diego. And so we had several events where we it was like a mixer with the students. And it was always really hard for me to, like, move around the crowd because they they were often packed in a little area. And I brought that up to my boss, and he was like, oh, yeah. I never thought about that. Okay. Like, you know, so being heard was a big deal.

Lily Newton:

Oh, I I hope there's some employers that listen to this and hear that because it really is that you don't have to reinvent the wheel. You don't have to replace all the water fountains without talking in to anyone. You just have to make sure that when your disabled employees are advocating for themselves, you're listening. It's so important. Okay. So that kind of answered this question a lot, but I wanna see if there's any final statement you wanna make on it. How can employers create a more inclusive environment for people with disabilities?

Jennifer Gasner:

I I think a lot of it is just listening to them. And, also, the other the other thing too is allowing the disabled person to speak if they want to to a larger group of people if they're comfortable to explain their disability, you know, or what's going on.

Lily Newton:

If, again, this is all contingent on if they're comfortable with it because some people don't wanna expose themselves. Absolutely. But I do think that's an important thing. The meeting Erin referenced earlier that we had earlier today, it just kind of while I was doing a different presentation, it made sense to say in that presentation, like, you know, I'm autistic, and I really struggle with eye contact was something that I said, which my colleagues know I'm autistic, obviously. I host this podcast. I tend to not show up about it. But I had never actually said those words, like, in front of all of my colleagues that, like, eye dip eye contact can be really difficult for me. And now because I got to say it in front of everyone at once, I don't have to worry about offending people if I'm not looking at them while talking to them. Like, there's so that is really important to create that space for people to say what they need to say to feel understood and included.

Well, you've given us a lot of information and lots to think about today. I'm so grateful you came on this podcast. This has been such a blast. Listeners, go read her book, her memoir, just in case you missed it at the beginning, is My Unexpected Life, Finding Balance Beyond My Diagnosis. We'll link to it in the description of this video if you're watching. Jennifer, how can people find you? Are you on social media?

Jennifer Gasner:

I'm on Instagram at Jenny j Rider and on Facebook at Jennifer Gasner author and LinkedIn at Jennifer Gasner. And my website is jennifergasner.com. And if you've signed up for my mailing list on the website, you get a link to the playlist for the book.

Lily Newton:

Love it. Oh, and there's good music in that reference in the book. That's awesome to do the playlist. Well, listeners, give her a follow. Read her book. This has been such an amazing interview. Thank you so much for coming on our show, Jennifer.

Jennifer Gasner:

Thank you guys for having me. This is really great.

Lily Newton:

It is nice, right, to have, like, a just some time to spend where we just get it. It's so nice. Yeah. I love this podcast. Thank you to Easterseals for giving us this space to have authentic, incredible conversations like this. Erin, any last words?

Erin Hawley:

I'm just really happy that you joined us today, and I feel like we should definitely stay connected for sure.

Lily Newton:

Yes. Absolutely. Easterseals followers, I have a feeling you'll be seeing Jen in some of our upcoming campaigns because this has been a blast, and I know we'll wanna keep working with you. So, again, thank you so much for being here. Erin, thank you for being my incredible cohost. I adore you. Listeners, thank you for tuning in, and we will see you next time on another episode of Everything You Know About Disability is Wrong.

Lily Newton:

This is a podcast brought to you by Easterseals.

Erin Hawley:

You know, we actually work for Easterseals, but maybe our listeners don't know what we do.

Lily Newton:

That's true. Easterseals is leading the way to full access, equity, and inclusion for disabled people and their families.

Erin Hawley:

And did you know we've been doing this for more than a century?

Lily Newton:

This includes helping disabled people find meaningful employment and addressing health care needs for all ages.

Erin Hawley:

We've found to serve communities across the country and ready for the next 100 years. For more, check out easterseals.com.

Lily Newton:

This is a podcast brought to you by Easterseals.

Erin Hawley:

You know, we actually work for Easterseals, but maybe our listeners don't know what we do.

Lily Newton:

That's true. Easterseals is leading the way to full access, equity, and inclusion for disabled people and their families.

Erin Hawley:

And did you know we've been doing this for more than a century?

Lily Newton:

This includes helping disabled people find meaningful employment and addressing health care needs for all ages.

Erin Hawley:

We're proud to serve communities across the country and ready for the next 100 years. For more, check out easterseals.com.

Lily Newton (commercial segment):

This is a podcast brought to you by Easterseals.

Erin Hawley(commercial segment):

You know, we actually work for Easterseals, but maybe our listeners don't know what we do.

Lily Newton(commercial segment):

That's true. Easterseals is leading the way to full access, equity, and inclusion for disabled people and their families.

Erin Hawley(commercial segment):

And did you know we've been doing this for more than a century?

Lily Newton(commercial segment):

This includes helping disabled people find meaningful employment and addressing health care needs for all ages.

Erin Hawley(commercial segment):

We're proud to serve communities across the country and ready for the next 100 years. For more, check out easterseals.com.